Dropping Bricks Builder. Moving to Zion Builder

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Hello there,

I am switching from Bricks Builder to Zion Builder because of the reasons below. No promotion of any kind. Just the issues which I have noted are highlighted.

1. Slow Update Cycle: I have noticed bugs are fixed in next release instead of small bug fix releases. Bugs of 1.37 requires user to update to 1.4 beta which itself is a beta release. So next release means wait of few months before the bugs are fixed in between releases. Zion releases quick updates if any bugs are noted. So easier for user to use in production. Zion is more stable compared to Bricks. Bricks may be more buggy due to major changes in the code base in last few releases.

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2. Lack of 3rd Party Dev: Zion builder dev api is very flexible and all the addons goes through their existing Zion Cache System and Styling System. It’s difficult to create addons for Bricks and the existing addons like Bricksable and Max Addons are lack luster compared to Zion’s ZiUltimate & ZionExtras.

3. Less Flexibility in Bricks: Zion allows any element to be nested inside any element with no limits. Any element can be converted into a repeater (posts, terms, taxonomy, ACF repeater). I can achieve the same in Bricks but requires me to use a lot of code which I am doing right now. Zion saves time for me in this aspect.

4. Copy Elements across Tabs: Elements across tabs / templates can be copied in Zion.

5. Lack of Mega Menu, Popups & Display Conditions: I can achieve display conditions via code easily
in Bricks. But mega menu and popups are big trouble with responsive css. Zion have all three.

I understand Bricks next few updates will include nesting and some features. But it will still lack the flexibility due to repeater, lack of proper 3rd party dev api and slow update cycle to fix bugs.

I wish Bricks team thank you for all the support and work. I feel that Bricks might be worth revisiting end of this year.

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Hi omega,
it’s a pity that you are leaving us, but thank you for your honest opinion and input!

We would be happy if you give us another chance in a few months and wish you good luck until then :slight_smile:

Best regards,
timmse

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This is a very fair assessment. I’ve noticed the quality of the Bricks product decreasing over the last few versions. New issues are understandable with such dramatic architecture changes (although better planning would also eliminate those…and some pretty dramatic architecture changes seem to be responsible for slowing down the development schedule in general lately), but the fact that hotfixes are not released is a big problem. That means months of using a version with significant bugs that were introduced, rather than quickly patching them with a bugfix-only interim release.

This also applies to betas…when a beta is released it typically introduces several new bugs, but rather than release a second (and third if necessary) beta, the next release is the general release, often several weeks later.

Currently I’m using v1.4b for all projects simply because it is more stable than the current general release (v.1.3.7), but while it fixes many bugs, it has introduced new ones. If it takes another 6 weeks to release the general release version, that means there hasn’t been a mostly stable version since v.1.3.5, which is a long time to go while working around some pretty frustrating bugs.

Examining the release schedule and focusing more on quality and stability would be my advice to prevent other customers from abandoning ship. I’m not planning to jump ship myself, but I have to say that my enthusiasm has been waning lately, and issuing bugfix patches would go a long way to shoring it up.

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Totally agree with bug fixes, it should be #1 priority in every road map :star_struck:

Don’t listen to those who always want more features, bells and whistles, the new super mega slider or mega-mega hype menu, don’t listen to your ego (no offense, you are clearly among the less worst dev team out there) and just fix bugs to deliver professional quality product (which is soooo rare). It will pay in the long term:

  • pleased customers (maybe they don’t know it yet but in the end a really pro bugfree perfectly crafted classic menu is way better than a mega buggy-ugly mega-mega menu)
  • crush the competition (Oxygen might be my exclusive choice for now, some ridiculous stupid as fuck bugs have been there for years and I can’t wait to switch!!!)
  • less time reading complaints here (We could just tell our favorite jokes about other builders! Or just work :roll_eyes:)

Well, sorry if it sounded obvious and drunk… Just a few words of encouragement!

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I agree and dont at the same time.

I think this is the part of the development lifecycle of Bricks that was and will be the most contentious for the users (and the Bricks team).

I am all for bug fixes, and I could not use Bricks 1.3.7, and some of my sites were at a standstill. However that being said, I actually think Bricks is following the correct projectory from a business perspective.

Most of the dev work should be on introducing new features at an early to mid-stage of the product lifecycle, dont get me wrong I am not talking superficial features like a youtube playlist or some other jive but the key critical staples needed for a builder in 2022 and beyond such as:

  • Conditions
  • CSS Grid
  • Popup Builder
  • Multilingual solution

Once you have the key features included, the development cycle would move towards a more maintenance centric approach with a heavier emphasis on bug fixing. But come on, it is not like they are ignoring bugs and chucking our half-baked pointless features. Check the changelogs. If you ask me, it’s crazy how they have managed to do so much bug fixing simultaneously.

The Reasons Why I am still super stoked about Bricks.

  1. The foundation is ROCK solid! Especially with this rewrite in 1.4b. I dont mean the bugs, of course, but the code output and the performance! I just ran one of my development sites homepage that has about 20 images (albeit majority WebP) and about 12 custom posts being piped into it with NO caching plugins on GTMetrix (I know it all about mobile scores, but it gives me a good indication of what can be achieved after optimising). Latest Performance Report for: http://tree-surgeon-main.gu0xopxcy3-zqy3jzow16kg.p.runcloud.link/ | GTmetrix

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  1. The team behind bricks, again, check the changelog, which has been done by two people (majority). and that is not taking into account two HUGE pivots (that needed to happen). one being the intro of the container and the 2nd being the full PHP rewrite.

  2. Taking the bugs out of the equation for a second, how joyful is it to use Bricks to build websites? It’s just such a nice builder to use…IMO the best to use. Imagine in 1 year when the key features are in place and the bugs are becoming less and less as there is more time to focus on them. Nirvana!!

Now that being said. I do think they should have listened more to the feedback from the community on FB and here about 1.3.7, and I do think this dented what was flawless communication, and they should have released a hotfix, but that has gone, and 1.4b is already a huge improvement, ( i can actually start building again :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:)

I was actually going to create a topic about this to help speed up the development lifecycle, Thomas pointed out that the testing was the biggest drain on time to be able to release.

So I was going to suggest why not create a closed beta testing group with a select few chosen from the forum/FB to help?

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I think you brought up some great points with the closed beta testing group, I think in another post, I even mentioned the possibility of letting some of us have some access to the repo where we as a whole can help contribute to the growth of the platform.

I think launching a software as Bricks has done, with a forum, where they get blasted with bugs/features/and misc, can be overwhelming to a small team.

Maybe by providing access to the repo for a small portion of people, we can help deliver new/more exciting features, whether it just be jive half-baked modules to use in a new site, to an overhaul of the current modules, that the bricks team can lift off their shoulders.

After all they would still be able to determine what actually makes it into the source code…

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@omega
I think that the slow update cycle is dues to the recent major coding rewrite of the site builder. I agree that Bricks takes this process early before there are more and more people using Bricks. Please keep your Bricks license and come back a few months later.

@timmse @thomas
I agree with what the above said. Quick hotfixes are required every time you have a new stable release(maybe up to 2 hotfixes). Don’t push the bug fixes to another new version.

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@omega Thank you so much for your honest feedback. Definitely all good points that I’d like to address:

  1. You wrote: “Bricks may be more buggy due to major changes in the code base in last few releases.”

The last update cycle has been rather long, I agree. Which bug(s) made it impossible to work with 1.3.7 in production, though?

Curious to hear from other users as well about the major issues/bugs in 1.3.7 for which we should have released a hotfix. So we can better understand when we should release one next time.

  1. I am curious if you could tell me more about this “Cache System” and “Styling System”, and how we could make Bricks more developer-friendly.

  2. Enabling the Query Loop on any Container you should be able to repeat/loop over any Bricks element inside this container. Or did you mean something else?

  3. Copy & pasting elements and element styles across browser window & tabs (same origin) is working for me in 1.4.

  4. Yep, they are all on the roadmap :slight_smile: I’m afraid there is no quick solution for those other than to wait …

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Hi Thomas. I appreciate you getting back to me and thanks for the awesome work you doing on Bricks Builder.

  1. There were solutions posted by @timmse on the forums for most of the bugs but quick hotfixes will allow us to make the website smoothly without trying to figure out the bug and then try to find solutions in the forum. I am sure others user can share more details on this aspect.

  2. I will share the comments of ZionExtras dev ( ZionExtras | Zion Builder Addon | Extra Elements) - David from Zion discord. He is also the dev of OxyExtras.

Same comments has been echoed by the ZiUltimate Dev - Chinmoy. I guess it will be good if you discuss with these dev. They will be able to make the right suggestions to you.

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  1. Zion allows setting ACF repeater as the type of query loop apart from user, posts and terms as in Bricks. So that allows me to output acf repeater fields in the query loop out of box without single line of code. Repeater - Zion Builder

You can use query loop in any element in Zion Builder - whether first party or 3rd party. I understand some of my concern will be solved post you allow nesting of elements under any element. So I can query loop the slider and make solid layouts with dynamic data. But the ACF repeater support is the differentiator in Zion.

  1. Yes. Sorry. I guess it was an issue with my localhost setup. Copy paste across works fine on a production site.

  2. Yes. I know you will make them well. If the 3rd party dev api is made more flexible and opened up then they will fullfill the shortcomings. :slight_smile:

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I feel one or two basic plugins example on Github for Bricks will do wonders. It will help devs understand how to create plugins for Bricks.

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@omega Hmmn seems this thread is more geared towards putting pressure on opening up access :face_with_monocle:

So you think Bricks would be more successful if their customers could spend more money with other 3rd party plugin companies? Or if Bricks had an integration with ‘ZiBricks’, people would come flocking to Bricks? Nah, not at all!!

People invest in the builder first, then 3rd party addons. There is virtually no benefit to the builder from 3rd party addons. The only one who benefits is the 3rd party plugin dev.

If I were bricks, I would consider leasing out API and rights access to 3rd party devs, but the devs have to pay, for example, 50-50 on all plugin sales, including subs; then yeah, that’s fair, I think.

P.s The fee is to cover the development costs of creating the builder in the first place and any brand damage caused by conflict updates (something which is wrecking Elementor as we speak), extra support costs etc.

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It’s not about opening something new. API for Dev is already there. It just needs to be made more friendly.

No body is forcing any body to buy 3rd party addons. It is optional. If a feature is not available in the core can be added through addons. Think of it more people working on the same project.

There is benefit to the builder also. Builder sales increases if user finds the builder with a particular addon covers the need. Even the 3rd party Dev promotes the builder.

Code is available under gpl license, what you are suggesting is not feasible.

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I appreciate the code maybe GPL but granting access/licence is not. And this is where the charge would be placed.

But you support my idea below right, it all about supporting each other, everybody wins working on the same project :slight_smile:

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Bricks will be at disadvantage with such a move when all the competitors have open API as well as good plugin dev (Elementor, Oxygen, Bricks, Gutenberg, etc)

If Bricks intention was to charge they would have made it clear instead of creating the dev api. Developer – Bricks Academy (bricksbuilder.io)

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The disadvantage to what?

All I can see is Bricks is the most promising builder currently; by this time next year, it will have the majority of the essential features needed and a focus on quashing bugs, making it solid and top tier.

All the 3rd party plugin devs are circling because they are not thick, they see Bricks as their next cash cow, and the more features Bricks adds, the less value they can offer to bamboozle people into buying their plugins.

*Please note I am not saying ALL 3rd party devs are bad, but it comes down to business and making money for them, they ain’t no NGO’s.

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i am as well moving to zion. waiting on bricks. i love bricks, but zion with the ziultimate and zion extras is closer to oxygen with oxyextras. I don’t know much about development, but do know I can fake beinga developer with zion… oxygen is by far the more robust solution, but i just can not wait on the interface anymore. so alas, zion it is until bricks makes the next big step. love me some Thomas, happy files, and not givin up… see ya in a little while…:expressionless:

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Man I’m in the same situation I’d like ask you 1 one thing . Could you pm me ? Even on telegram if it’ isn’t possible here .

My telegram username is @bullpl97

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As a Bricks noob, would love to see @thomas reply to @omega ‘s last long response. Thank you.

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That “cash cow” thing doesn’t make much sense. Aren’t you using Bricks as a “cash cow” to build and sell websites to clients?

Of course, you may expect to squeeze out as much value as possible from Bricks without spending a penny on top of your initial investment, but most people wouldn’t bet on such high ROI.

3rd party devs get paid for their efforts and for their expertise. Just like you do.

And it’s called an “ecosystem”. It usually benefits the core product.

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Firstly it’s really nice to see a comment from someone who has not just registered. I appreciate it is the only second comment you have made, but that’s one more than the majority on this thread. So kudos to you.

I don’t think you fully understand the reasoning behind why I said cash cow. So let me explain it to you in more ‘simpler terms’.

This thread is a perfect example.

The initial poster registers then post a topic regards to control option initially. The following day, he decides to give a farewell speech.

  1. Citing Slow Update cycle: Yet Zion took 6 months Changelog - Zion Builder. Makes sense to leave?

  2. Then the main reason (I believe and then confirmed later in the thread) regards 3rd party support

  3. Nested Elements - Roadmap (literally in a couple of updates time) Make sense to leave?

  4. Inc in 1.4 makes sense?

  5. On the roadmap. Make sense to leave?

But that’s all good; he did say it was for no promotion in his original comment, so that must be true, and Stefan wishes him all the best.

The end, right? Nope haha

Thomas politely responds to his farewell speech and mentions what I said above but in a much more mannered way.

And then Omega replies with Discord chats of Zion Extras (Link included for good measure :rofl:) and finishes off with: If the 3rd party dev API was made more flexible and opened up.

That led me to this comment.

The thread then receives three more new people who literally just registered to comment on this thread about how they feel the same. I am surprised they never added their affiliate link for Zi ultimate and extras in their comments; hahaha, so funny!

So coming back to the reason I said cash cow is, is to look at ZiUltimate and what everyone seems to be pushing for and how there is just no way possible they can use Bricks without it…It looks trash, and I would not use it (personal opinion), Bricksable looks on par with this, and it’s free. But nearly three-quarters of what they offer will be in Bricks in 6 months anyway.

The 3rd party devs see this…this is why threads like this are cropping up, and also, some are in the FB group as they have to apply pressure because they cannot get money from Bricks users unless something changes quickly.

They have already put in the majority of the development, it takes nowhere near the same amount of investment to make it compatible / port it to another builder.

So they see their ‘cash cow’ getting away. Because if they do not get a headstart before Bricks implements the majority of what they are offering, they have nothing to offer.

Just touching on your other points:

It does not make sense, so I have to spend more on other products that support the product I am buying to make the most out of a product. And if not, that’s unrealistic? If so, why does the original product exist if it cannot do what it is meant to? That’s like buying a car without wheels. (Sorry mate, wheels are not included. You need an addon for that). :crazy_face:

Also, in terms of investment, I was one of the first to buy bricks; I am one of the most active here and in the FB group helping, welcoming and supporting as much of my time as possible. Which you could say is in the $1000’s, and I do that because I believe in Bricks. I don’t believe in Bricks + 5 addons. And when I see threads like this, they look so out of place, and you know there are ulterior motives behind it.

Of course, nothing against this; everyone needs to be paid.

Ask Elementor why they decide to close off the ecosystem bar of a few select plugins in their cloud offering. The amount of brand damage they are receiving after every update on WP is crazy because of all the plugin conflicts, and this is why they are positioning themselves away before it’s too late.

p.s. here is another $45 30 minute investment and contribution I have made to Bricks. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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